Can men and women be friends without the sex stuff getting in the way? In an interesting tête-à-tête in the comment section of a previous post, Raymond, Darwin and I pose this question to each other; however, I think the answer deserves a full post in its own right. So, here it is … I think every woman is different but, in my case, I usually tell a guy I just want to be friends when one of the following occurs:
1. Ain’t No Chemistry. Call it lust, attraction, pashing, magic or whatever — you know it when it’s there, and you can’t deny it when it’s not.
2. It’s Illegal to Fuck Him. Legally, I can fuck almost anyone 18+ that I choose. But, men I consider “socially” illegal include: married men; guys who are dating my friends; boys who live in my apartment building (a.k.a. “apartmentcest”); anyone more than 10 years older than I am; etc.
3. I ONLY Want to Fuck Him. Ahhhhh, the notorious Fuck Buddy. In this case, the friend thing is a negative choice: it’s not that I want to be the guy’s friend, I just don’t think he’s prime boyfriend material ( … yet I still want to have sex with him because he’s hot).
4. He’s Too Nice. It goes without saying that everyone should be nice to each other. But, if a guy is nicer to me than he is to himself—that’s too nice. Actually, wait a minute. Check that. Maybe the sin isn’t to be “too nice” so much as it is to “acquiesce too much”.
Having said all of that, the question about whether men and women can ever TRULY be platonic friends remains. What’s my opinion? Well, in my case, I have to say the answer is: not usually. I’ve slept with 90% of my straight male friends. Why? Well, most are ex boyfriends, past boy toys, or former fuck buddies. For the remaining 10%, for whatever reason, we never dated or otherwise hooked up. We met in some other context, and we’re just friends. I’d love to hear your opinions on the topic “Men + Women = Friends?” Please use the comments section to share your thoughts …
{ 24 comments… read them below or add one }
First of all, we need to get you laid.
Second, yes you can be friends with the opposite sex. I have 2 really close ‘girlfriends’. I can call them up just to hang out with. I have never really thought about sleeping with them, that sounds kind of strange coming from me now that I think about it. You know I may have to ask them if they have ever thought about sleeping with me. Hmmmm, damnit Stolie! Now you made me think and I am at work.
#1. Oh, I know. :) If I strictly wanted sex, I could call either of the 3 Mandrops and have them come fuck me tonight but I’m not interested in having sex with either of them. I’m holding out until I meet someone that I actually *want* to fuck.
#2. REALLY?!?!? If I *didn’t* think about having sex with my opposite-sex friends, I don’t know who I would think about when I masturbate. Paul Walker? Kanye West? Been there, done that.
stolie, you are the funniest. and yes, most girls can just stand out in the middle of traffic and pick up 23 guys. it’s the QUALITY of these guys that causes us to think twice about bedding them.
you hold out for what you’re looking for. even if it’s just for a fantastic fuck. ;)
_
as for whether boys and girls can just be friends. yes. but attraction has to be lacking on one person’s part. i have enough male friends like that.
however, currently, i’m in the middle of a i-like-you-enough-to-sleep-with-you-but-possibly-not-enough-to-have-a-full-relationship-with-you. which is a bit of a first for me, since we are both rather eligible. but we’re slipping into this gray zone, where we can’t be sleeping around with others because that’s just plain unsafe but i don’t want to be exclusive, either. i’m all messed up after the last boy who broke my heart and current boy knows it. he kinda sat through it, the tail end of it anyway. he then offered to “exorcise the demons of loves past”. (how kind of him, no?) i think he wants a relationship but is playing it cool, waiting on my word.
any thoughts on how to go about this, kids?
_
I think I’ve slept with 97% of my male friends, which is only ever an issue when my boyfriend meets one of them. Just a tiny issue. He gets this glazed-over look as if his brain is working overtime and he’s trying to make it stop.
Do you mean can a man and woman be strictly platonic right from the get-go? Sure…but in NYC where everyoneis a potential date, it’s got to be hard. I’m no longer in an environment full of eligble men, and also no longer single. BUT when I was bartending there was a plethora of boys and girls and it was one big friend/sex mishmash. No lasting male friendships came out of that…lots of sex, though.
One of my best freinds was also my very first boyfriend. The last time we “did it” was 20 years ago…does that even count?
Well, I think it all depends on where you are in life. When single, it is much more difficult to not think of any eligible person in your life as a possible relationship – mate, lover, fuck-buddy, whatever. Once you have found “the one,” even if it’s just “the one for now,” it’s easier to be just friends.
I think female/male friendships can be done, and done well, but I think that it needs to be the right situation for everyone.
Miss Anon – Well, I guess you really have to decide how much you want this boy around if things don’t work out. If you really wanna keep him around, then you should probably stop sleeping with him until you decide if you can have a realationship with him. If he’s important to you but not long-term relationship material, you need to try to move back to the friend zone. If you can live without seeing him if things don’t work out – but you never know, they just might – then try out a relationship and kick him to the curb if you aren’t happy. Let us know how it goes…
Why Men Say “Let’s Be Friends”
1) Preemptive Strike
We think you’re about to say it and we’re getting there ahead of you. It’s an ego thing.
2) You’re Excessively Needy
I don’t want to talk EVERYDAY. I need my CSI/Tivo night so I can drool over Jorja Fox, Marg Helgenberger, Melina Kanakaredes, Anna Belknap, Emily Procter, Khandi Alexander
Excuse me, I need a moment…
and Sofia Milos.
3) You used the M word in the first month
Yes it happens.
4) You’re jealous
I have quite a few female friends. I’m not doing them but they’re not going away because you are in my life.
4) You’re psycho
You talk about setting fire to my truck or bringing knives to bed. Or, and this was the relationship killer, you compare me to the uncle who molested you.
5) Strategy
We see you settling into a buddy orbit so we are shaking up the status quo. Hopefully seeing us moving on will throw a little kindling on the embers.
hey mama,
thanks for the advice. we’re going to have that talk soon about where things are going, bc surely there must be SOME rules about how we conduct ourselves here, so we can minimize any potential hurt and not arouse any latent jealousies.
not sure what i want at the moment, but i’d said to him right before we got down: “my friendship will last longer than the venture down this path … which do you choose?” silly me thought he MIGHT pick the former. hahha. but i was curious enough to let it happen. so, both our doing.
i’ll keep ya posted. any other thoughts are always welcome. particularly stolie’s. :)
_
First up, thank you for the get well wishes!The whole thing with platonic friends…I’m up for platonic relationships 100%. Recently, I don’t know if you’ve read the group blog that Andy set up but I was asking advice about meeting up with someone I talked to on Msn messenger. Well I met him last week. It’s never going to be anything but platonic and I’m happy with that.
I think he thought I was being modest when I described myself but I was brutally honest and I couldn’t help but laugh inwardly when disappointment flitted across his face. Plus and this only really filtered through to me in the past few days, I don’t find him attractive. I’m pretty sure the lack of attraction is mutual but we’re still in touch. I think that bodes well for friendship. For some reason I’m just not comfortable with anything more than friendship. But hey, you win some you lose some, right?
The only sucess I’ve had with a platonic male-female relationship (me being the female) is with someone who lives 2000 miles away — in your hood Stolie. And he’s my best boy buddy ever.
We were freshman friends in college together and “missed our chance.” Six years later we know too much about each other (past partners, personal habits, bodily functions, et al) to ever find the other one sexually attractive. He’s the big brother I never wanted.
He treats me accordingly: “I told ja sos” included.
Actually, he’s cute, makes too much money for his own good and is now very single. I could get you some digits…he needs to meet a smart girl like you.
#3 is an excellent reason to be friends.
miss anon: That’s soooo true. I don’t know ANY woman who couldn’t have sex by Monday morning if she wanted to. It’s easy to find anyone, it’s hard to find the right one. And, no, I’m not above a fantastic fuck outside of a relationship. Wait a minute … come to think of it, where did I put Le Canadien’s telephone number? ;)
miss anon: I TOTALLY AGREE. As long as *one* of the two people doesn’t want the other, the sexual tension is kept at bay. If both parties want each other, it’s over. Now … about this i-like-you-enough-to-sleep-with-you-but-possibly-not-enough-to-have-a-full-relationship-with-you situation … Fuck buddies are GREAT! But, it gets a little messy if one or both of the parties start to develop feelings. Is this guy a “rebound” guy? (Be careful about moving on too quickly, even if it’s to heal a broken heart.) Hmmm … I’d need more details about the situation before I could provide out any concrete advice …
missbhavens: I appreciate your honesty!! And, I’m glad to know that I’m not alone. :-) By the way, for the record, the Virgin Rule kicks in after 5 years. If it’s been more than 5 years since you slept with a person, it’s like it never happened. So, no, your first boyfriend doesn’t count. You’ve never slept together. :)
MamaChristy: Good point. This piggybacks onto miss anon’s comment about the attraction lacking on one part of the equation. If one party is in a committed relationship, that person is usually not interested in actively pursuing someone else to whom they find themselves attracted.
Raymond: I love your list. (By the way, Boy #2 soooo pulled #1.) Did #4 ever actually happen to you?!?!?!?
miss anon: Need more info. I love giving out free dating advice; and, that’s somewhat laughable because I totally suck at the dating stuff. :)
Nics: I knew it!!! When you said that it was totally platonic, my first thought was: “I bet she doesn’t find him attractive.” But, you’re right: win some, lose some.
Lola: Your best bud is a New Yorker? Yay!!! Coincidentally, I have a male friend in California. He’s in that “10%” that I’ve never slept with. If we still lived in the same city, we probably would have slept together by now … But, back to this guy friend of yours … So, he’s single, huh? And, he lives in New York. Is he cute? Do I see a “blind date” in my future? ;)
goldennib: That’s exactly my point. :-) In the case of #3, the “let’s just be friends conversation” usually goes something like: “I want to get you liquored up and then bump us into the special friends category.”
I agree with some previous comments posted: If the attraction is lacking in one party, then, yes, it is possible for men and women to be “just friends.” I also think that it is highly advisable to keep some friends of the opposite sex for sounding boards when you’ve lost perspective.
I have plenty of male friends with whom I haven’t even shared a kiss. Boyfriends have still found reasons to be jealous of them. (I’m agreeing with raymond’s #4.)In general, I have no patience for the emotion of jealousy. It’s a waste of everybody’s time and energy.
I love men! :)
My friend “M.D.” in Chicago provides really good advice about guys; he’s one of the best sounding boards around. Now, if he would just fly out here and fuck me, I’d be doing ok. :)
I’ve got several completely platonic female friends, one of whom is easily one of my best friends in the world. Maybe it’s because with her, it’s that there’s no attraction – she goes for dark and brooding (I’m blond), and I go for petite brunettes (she’s a tall blond!). irregardless, she and I can sit, over a bottle (or 2) of wine and just “shoot the shit” and have a great time…
I’m continuously making good, platonic female friends – it often starts as a date, but with no attraction, there’s no point, right?
I could use the “Friend with Benefits” right now though, oh yes, I most definately could…
Yeah,
That uncle thing.
She told me my silhouette in the bedroom reminded her of her uncle.
Sheesh. Glad that’s over.
This is a demon of a topic!
My thoughts? Most of my friends are boys. Some of them are exes or guys I’ve hooked up with, some of them I used to fancy, some of them used to fancy me. It brings me back to what I posted about before on my blog, about how sometimes it feels like friendship is the ground state, where things are stable (I can’t think of a better example, but imagine electrons in a transition metal, the excitation energies for each one varies but there IS a ground state where they settle down- bugger, I just realised how dreadfully geekish that sounds, I do apologise!). Anyway I think most of the platonic friendships we have are when we settle down/compromise and go for the consolation prize of friendship. The reasons for deciding to go down the friends-path are many; lack of attraction/lack of chemistry/mutual incompatibility with regard to something important/unavailability, heck even sometimes something as simple as weird eyebrows. Whatever. Sometimes you just don’t click for whatever reason, no matter how well the two people connect with each other. Hence comes the cross-roads where you either part ways or become friends. Hence why I said platonic friendships are the consolation prize for a non-possible relationship.
BUT
This does not by any means lower the value of the friendship. The words consolation prize somehow make it seem as if friendship is second best, which is untrue. Most of the time friendships are simpler and longer lasting compared to a complicated relationships with a million variables in the equation.
So to answer you, yes it IS possible, I am speaking from personal experience here. But I can’t deny the fact that ‘what-if’ thoughts go/went through both parties minds at some point, hence there is a difference between platonic and girl-girl or boy-boy friendships (or girl-boy for the non-hetero).
99 Million Projects and Counting: Why I have problems in the dating arena
This may or may not represent the experiences of others
1) We (men and women) don’t usually come to the “Let’s Be Friends” conclusion at the same time. And the women in my life usually get there before I do. Normally when it is the other way around, we just hang out and never date.
2) I literally have 99 Million Projects going on. I don’t go over all of them on my blog, also a project, but I am a Mad Dabbler.
3) I work nights. So meeting people is not the easiest thing.
4) Friends I see when I see, as I have spare time. We email and talk on the phone mostly and get together for lunch or dinner when we can.
5) With all of that going on, when I start carving out enough space to have someone in my life romantically, I’m pretty disappointed when it jumps off.
So while I wouldn’t exactly mind having them in my life still, I have a habit of sending them to the back of the bus. My established friends take priority over failed relationship friends.
Oh its very possible to have platonic friends!…just make friends with ugly guys!!
(I’m kidding! I’m kidding)
Seriously…once I make a real friendship with a guy, I cant look at them as a sexual being.
…also I am very frigid and that helps!
(sadly, the kidding has stopped)
;-)
Mitch: Ahhhh, and I’m sure somewhere else in the world a petite brunette woman shoots the shit and shares a bottle of wine (or 2) with her dark and brooding platonic male friend. The world is imperfectly made … By the way, I have a question for you because I’m kind of confused about something. Okay. So, you say you’re blonde, taller than 6’ and a surfer, right? Are you secretly Paul Walker?!?! Why are you posing as a Canadian? ;-)
Raymond: That’s really gross.
Darwin: You lost me at the electrons in the transition metal thing, but you make a lot of great points. ;-) And, I know what you mean about eyebrows. Sometimes it’s the weirdest thing that kills the possibility of a relationship. I once went on a few dates with a guy who REALLY liked sci fi movies. It freaked me out.
Raymond: Hmmmm … For me, I’d have to say #1 happens a lot. Two people have to be mutually attracted to each other and like each other at the same time and on the same level. When you think about it, it’s really a miracle that couples ever get together.
Stacy: I have the opposite problem. I’m high energy. I have a really strong sex drive, and I have the stamina of a horse. So, when I meet a guy that I think is cute, I can’t stop thinking about kissing him and/or having sex with him. And, the next thing I know, that’s exactly what happens.
I think we need to explore this topic more…I can’t figure it which one it is with a friend of mine. Too nice? Then that makes me messed up for wanting an abuser…mind shift from married to divorced? Perhaps. Chemistry but not not fuck buddy chemistry…hmmmm. Off to ponder this topic alone.
Hey Stolie, don’t you have to be Jewish to do it with M.D.?
Actually…we both don’t find each other attractive! But there is so much to this topic that you could create a whole blog just to deal with it. Mind you, there probably is one somewhere!
The Notorious B: I don’t think you “want an abuser” just because you want a man who isn’t too nice. The whole “too nice” thing seems to be about not wanting to date anyone who doesn’t stand up for and/or respect themselves. By the way, your comment inspired my Sunday post.
MamaChristy: Cute. :) I don’t know the Fake MD; I said “M.D.” because my friend in Chicago’s initials actually are M.D. (His first name starts with an M and his last name starts with a D.) But, back to the Fake M.D., yes, I think you have to be Jewish to do it with him.
Nics: You said, “there is so much to this topic that you could create a whole blog just to deal with it.” Very true.