Should Men Always Pay for the First Date?
When it comes to dating and mating, who should pay for the date? “The date rapist should always pay for the Roofies,” answers a particularly snarky Gawker commenter called atipofthehat. “And the married older guy should always pay for everything.” Charming. Very charming. Anyway, so, after reading last Thursday’s “Gender Norms and the City” piece over at Gawker and the Friday afternoon follow-up, how could I not make today’s Manly Monday post about the men who do (or don’t) pay for first dates? If you missed the Gawker piece, here’s the recap. Emily writes a post. In it, she says that her friends went a little ballistic on her when she told them that she recently went Dutch on first date. “What the fuck makes women feel like being asked to pay their own way is an insult?” Emily asks. Hmmm. Good question. And, like atipofthehat, Gawker’s other commenters have equally snarky responses. The guy who blogs at hahasound says, “I always just assumed that all women were cheap. Maybe that’s why I’m still single.” Gawker commenter supastah asks, “Why do people spend so much time thinking and overthinking dating?” And, perhaps it’s exactly that question that led srosenb to air his frustration with the heterosexual dating world in general by announcing: “This is why I’m gay.”
Who should pay for the first date? The guy should always pay. Whoever asked for the date should pay. It should always be split 50/50. Women shouldn’t pay because we don’t receive equal pay for equal work. And, so on. You’ve all heard the various arguments and comments about this topic before. What’s my view on this issue? Oddly enough, before I moved to New York I always offered to pay my half of the bill during all dates — including the first date. It seemed, you know, the most fair way to do things. However, since I’ve moved to New York, I don’t really ever pay for anything on the first date if I can help it. Why the change? Oddly enough, the men that I’ve gone on dates with seem to make assessments of a woman’s value based on how much she is or is not willing to pay for the first date. At the dinner table, it seems that putting out to easily is not always a good thing. The more you’re willing to pay on the first date, the less the guy thinks you’re worth. But, that could just be my impression of the city. Others might feel differently. Anyway, so, I’ve read all of the comments at Gawker, and now I’m curious to hear what my own readers think. No need to be especially funny, witty or snarky. Just share your honest thoughts about the “Should Men Always Pay for the First Date?” question if you’d like.
October 1st, 2007 at 3:23 am
I think whoever did the asking should pay. Most often than not it’s the boy who asks the girl, so I think he should pay. If it’s something casual like the cinema then going Dutch would be fine, but I still think the ‘asker’ should offer :)
October 1st, 2007 at 3:54 am
That´s why I am gay… ;-)
honestly speaking, I think that in theory men and women should pay equally for the first date. In practice, I think its more like a case-by-case thing. Meaning: a banker should always pay the first date with a student, regardless of their gender, whereas two people in the same range of age and money possibilities should be clever enough to realise that they should share the bill.
Isn´t that obvious???
October 1st, 2007 at 6:25 am
Well I have heard it said that whomever asks who out should pay for the date. But, personally, I may be a bit old-fashioned in that I think the first date should be payed for by the guy… then its whatever.
October 1st, 2007 at 7:19 am
I always pay on the first date, and second date too btw. Actually I always think like this: “The person who invites the other, PAYS!”. And I never receive invites, so I end up paying myself hah. But one time I met a girl who let me pay for all 4 dates. 4th was at an expensive restaurant and our last date. So I tend to take it easy nowadays.
Hey where’s me email wiv the password to your previous posts? I’m a loooooooongtime reader, and the only Dutch/Italian one (you know you love that) :P
October 1st, 2007 at 7:44 am
@ Darwin1310: Oh, yeah. If the asker — whether male or female — doesn’t at least “offer” to pay, they’re a schmuck.
@ Antonio: I know what you mean about the banker stuff. I’m somewhat of a socialist about these things; whoever makes more should pay more.
@ Fiyah: I’m right there with you. If a guy allows me to pay on the first date, I feel resentful and it would affect my decision to go out with them again. So, I guess I’m somewhat of an old fashioned socialist — the guy should pay for the first date and, after that, whoever makes more should pay for a bigger portion of the dates.
@ PapiGiulio: Oops! You *are* a looooongtime reader. Excuse the oversight. Ik heb je de wachtwoord net gemaild! :)
October 1st, 2007 at 7:53 am
First date, smirst date. I’m long past that… What happens AFTER the first date???? I’m told men should always pay – but that seems a little over the top doesn’t it?
Me no password either…. I know I’ve been quiet lately but I didn’t realise that meant I’d be turfed!!!
October 1st, 2007 at 8:25 am
You soooo haven’t been turfed. Totally an oversight on my part. Check your email; it’s there now.
And, yeah, the first date is a definitely “the guy pays.” And, if I’m honest, I kind of expect him to pay for the second date, too. But, by the third or fourth date, I wouldn’t hate him if he let me pay for half (or even all) of the bill.
October 1st, 2007 at 8:34 am
where did you learn dutch??? babelfish?? :P
October 1st, 2007 at 9:09 am
Wow. I always thought this was a personal issue, but it never occured to me this might be a regional cultural issue as well! When we were dating, I let my husband pay for the first date and we discussed who would pay after that. Usually he did because the $6.25 an hour he made was more than the $4.25 an hour I made at our part time jobs. Now, he pays for everything! :) (Pays in a good way, btw!)
October 1st, 2007 at 9:18 am
Logically and rationally, I don’t think it’s right or fair to expect the guy to pay for the first date, but the fact is most guys DO, which unfortunately makes the ones who don’t look like a tool. Like I said, it isn’t “fair,” but it’s the way it is. I’ll always offer to split the bill on a first date, but I’d be lying if I didn’t say I’m at least a teensy bit taken aback if the guy accepts.
Also, I like your take on this, FBC–that a woman offering to pay somehow lowers her worth to the man. It’s sad that it should be true, but I sort of know exactly what you mean.
Also, can I have that password, too? :-)
October 1st, 2007 at 9:34 am
PapiGiulio: Dude, krijg de cholera en ook maar de typhus, okay? ;) Ik heb in Nederland voor bijna twee jaar gewoond. Dat was al vijf of ses jaren geleden. Mijn uitspraak is veel schlechter en nu maak ik vaak spellings en gramaticale fouten. Maaaar, ik spreek wel Nederlands, hoor. :)
MamaChristy: Oooooh!!! Somebody must have gotten laid recently. I could “see” the smile on your face through the computer. ;)
Stefanie: Exactly. I sometimes offer to pay part of the bill, but I get pissed if the guys accepts my money before the 3rd or 4th date. BTW, password in now in your inbox. Sorry! Totally an oversight on my part.
October 1st, 2007 at 11:42 am
Despite being 21 I am very old fashioned. I would offer to go half on the first date but then be insulted and very annoyed if my offer was accepted. I would only really genuinely offer to pay on the 4th date because by then you are starting to beyond “just dating”. Of course, all these rules go out the window when you’re dealing with boys as opposed to men.
October 1st, 2007 at 6:13 pm
My 2 cents: Whomever asked for the date should pay – which is usually the guy. Ok, it’s always the guy, but I would pay if I asked the guy out. If we’re out for dinner, I always offer to go Dutch (but honestly, if they accept my offer they lose a couple of points). After the 1st date, I expect us to split it.
Also, if the 1st date is a movie, if he pays for the tickets I will offer to pay for the popcorn and I’m fine with that.
Not necessarily consistent. But I know that I don’t want to feel like I owe the guy anything.
October 1st, 2007 at 7:08 pm
An older broad weighs in: Many of the comments from your younger female readers have cemented my theory that relations between the sexes have regressed to a pre-World War II state. Why on earth would you expect a man to pay, or get pissed off if he accepted your offer to split the bill? If a friend asked you to dinner, would you expect them to pay? Of course not, and although a date is different, all of the best relationships (male-female, male-male, female-female) are rooted in friendship. Friends don’t take advantage of each other to get a free meal. It’s no wonder that men think that women are materialistic. My apologies for sounding so hardline, but it’s sad to see how backwards the women of 2007 have become. If a man insists on paying for the first dinner date, I pay for drinks/dessert or a movie & popcorn afterwards and THEN I pay for the next date. It’s particularly tricky if you detect a distinct lack of chemistry early on, and if that is the case I insist on eating at a more modest restaurant so I won’t feel guilty if he covers the bill. And besides, fancy restaurants are for celebrations, not for first meetings. Dang! I sound like such a rusty old feminist!
P.S. If my comment hasn’t irritated you too much, please send me the password. I have commented at least once in the past. Vive la seniors (alright, I’m 43, but I feel about 60 at times!).
October 1st, 2007 at 10:13 pm
I think whoever asks should pay for the first date. That is different than first meets (internet or blind dates), sometimes I think they should be dutch (no pressure or expectations on either’s part set that way).
I am old fashioned and won’t ask a guy out on a first date but after I start dating, I have no problem paying my own way or treating him. It really depends on the guy though because some get offended at the idea of not “supporting” the women. I think that is when it gets complicated with who pays and who doesn’t.
First dates is the asker payer and the askee goes along for the ride :)
October 1st, 2007 at 10:37 pm
Actually, I always pay on a first date. I think it’s just right, especially because as a guy I’ve usually done the asking.
But I always expect to at least see a little bit of boob for my trouble.
October 1st, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Just kidding, in case that wasn’t obvious.
October 2nd, 2007 at 1:46 am
I don’t pay for anything. I’m a totally cheap bastard.
October 2nd, 2007 at 2:43 am
The asker pays . . .and chances are I ain’t asking :)
October 2nd, 2007 at 7:28 am
Ella: I thought I was only only one who did the “I’ll offer to pay, but I’ll think you’re an asshole if you take my money thing”. :) Whether or not I offer, I seriously don’t expect to pay for anything until at least the 3rd date.
haze: Very good point about the movie! I’ve done that, too. If I’m on a date and the guy buys the tickets, I’ll offer to buy the popcorn. It’s worth mentioning that, here in New York, we’d both be set back more that $20 for that. Movie tickets are $24 a pair. Pop, popcorn, and candy for two is about $20 – $28.
shegoestoeleven: What?!?!? Did you just say the “F” word??? ;) I’m one of those, too. :) I used to do the 50 / 50 thing in Chicago. But, I swear New York men don’t want that. If women have regressed, the men have done it as well. I can’t speak for other parts of the country. But, here, I’ve totally gotten the impression that men think you’re worth less if you offer to pay more. Could be this city. Could be the guys that I’m dating. But, I have totally noticed the difference, and I’ve acted accordingly.
Felicia: I’ve asked guys out before. And, this probably sounds bad but, yes, I still expect them to pay — if it’s a first date and it’s a dinner date.
Ha Ha Sound: Hmmm … kidding. Are you??
Baba Doodlius: You’re hilarious!!
Seren: Okay, so, here’s an exception. IF I ask a guy out, and it’s to something that’s not a dinner date, I’ll pay for the tickets. Like, for example, if I’m like, “Heeey, we should totally go see this random play that you’ve never heard of.” I’d pay for the tickets. But, if I’m like, “Heeeey, we should do dinner or drinks sometime.” I totally except him to pay.
October 2nd, 2007 at 10:14 am
i always offer to pay my half, but i like that men want to pay. but that’s because i’m still only a student and i usually go out with men who work, already.
but men who offer to pay are more likely to be worthy. they respect their women and they only want to be nice to them. it’s not a macho thing. i believe. at least here in portugal.
October 2nd, 2007 at 2:02 pm
When I go out with friends, of course I pay my share, but my friends don’t expect me to give them blow jobs afterwards, either! *lol*
October 2nd, 2007 at 3:57 pm
I generally always offer to pay, at least most all of the time (I’m 35, male, and do most of the asking).
However, one of my last girlfriends was far wealthier than I was. She always wanted to go out to these fancy ass restaurants. Now, personally, I’m a really, REALLY, good cook, and I would prefer to prepare dinner, but she always wanted to go out.
What’s more, she always expected me to pay. Now, here’s the deal. She was a lawyer, and a prosecutor, to boot. Me, I’m a lowly paralegal, and a convicted felon, to boot (I know, strange dynamic, but it made for some great grudgefuckin’).
[And BTW you don't know me from Adam, but I came here from Overworked and Underfucked and if you're just bandying around passwords, then I'll take one. Can't say that I'll ever use it. Hell, I may never even come back here, but what the hell?]
If that is the case, and the lady doesn’t want to eat my perfectly prepared cuisine and would rather have something at a four star restaurant, then I think that she should pay. I’m not against paying every once in a while, but I would cook every single night.
October 2nd, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Carolina Pereira: I agree; it doesn’t have to be a macho thing. :)
Phoena: Very funny. :) LOVE IT!!!
grampa: I love Overworked & Underf*cked; she gives good blog. About the paying for dates stuff … Yeah, after the first date, your last girlfriend should have paid. It all goes back to “whoever makes more pays more”.
October 11th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
A little late to comment.
I actually appreciate it when a girl offers to pay half. It shows me she’s not looking for a ’sugardaddy’. That said, my momma tells me to always pay for a girl, so I will decline the offer this 99% of the time (OK, I lied, it’s a bit of a schlong thing too).
PS In Holland that call BYOB and BYOF ‘an American party’ (only cheap people have those).
PPS, famous Dutch sayings: ‘Mijn vrouw hoeft niet te werken’!
October 13th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
“Mijn vrouw hoeft niet te werken.” Yeah, people used to say that in the 1960s here, but you really don’t hear it anymore nowadays.
November 6th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
I’m a 34 yr. old guy. It’s refreshing to hear a dose of sanity from shegoestoeleven. I find most repulsive the comments from women here who offer to help with the bill but secretly are disgusted when the guy accepts. Isn’t it universally accepted that sincerity is key in a good relationship? If, on the first date, you are making nice by offering but don’t really mean it, how could you hope to have honest communication and a transparent, mutually respectful relationship later on?
I went on 30-or-so dates in the last year. I recall that two women paid, and they surprised me by just doing it when I had excused myself to make a bathroom stop. (And yes, I went on subsequent dates with them, so they weren’t trying to end the date, they were just being clever in a refreshing cool way.) I respected them as women that were going to step up to the plate and take responsibility for themselves and for a potential relationship. It wasn’t about who made more, or who asked who out, or some silly old-fashioned concept of “the guy always pays.”
The other 28 either were looking for a meal ticket or offered to pay but were insincere about it or just let me pay, the last of which is perfectly within reason, by the way, if I had asked them out.
I went out with a woman who said yes to a second date and added “a girl’s gotta eat, right?” How endearing. Glad you don’t mind doing it on my dime. How about “yes, I’ll go out with you again because I had a good time and you’re a nice guy.” Guess I have to give her a point for being honest about where her interests are.
I have met women for just drinks and been floored by how much more than me they’ll drink. It’s not just a cost thing but an issue of self control and first impressions.
One had asked me out and I took the check and didn’t say a word about it. She offered quite insistently on helping out, so I let her get the tip. Later, in an e-mail, she told me how she was un-impressed that I didn’t pay for the whole thing. What, am I supposed to completely disregard what she’s saying and overrule her? Maybe I should have clubbed her, thrown her over my shoulder and dragged her back to my cave too? Come on.
She had asked me out, I drove 40 minutes to meet her in her town, I was going to pay without question, and I lose her respect because I accept an offer to pay when I just let her cover the tip? This is repulsive, ugly behavior by a woman.
From a guy’s point of view, I never know what to think when a woman offers. I don’t know if she’s lying or not. I’ve consequently grown very cynical about ALL women and their intentions well beyond the first date. They are so good at lying with a smile that I just don’t take what most women say at face value.
I don’t value a woman’s worth based on whether she is willing to pay. She is not diminished in my eyes if she offers to pay.
She is diminished by greedy behavior, judging me by my wallet, lying and insincere communication that later turns out to mask her real thoughts.
Ladies, as far as guys regionally insisting on paying: In a city like NYC, there’s a lot more pressure about status. Guys know it’s a losing position with the vast majority of women if they don’t open up their wallet, no questions asked. It doesn’t mean they like it. I’m from Boston, and it’s much the same here.
There’s plenty of inequity in today’s society for men and women. Women aren’t improving their status or contribution to relationships, family or the workplace by seeing men as their meal ticket.
It’s time to step up and take responsibility for yourselves. It will pay dividends later in raising the quality of interactions between men and women.
November 7th, 2007 at 4:52 am
Thanks for sharing. :)
November 22nd, 2007 at 3:13 pm
I used think that the woman should offer to pay half because I felt obligated in some way if the man paid and it didn’t seem fair.
I no longer think this. I now think the man should pay for most of the dates. I like the dynamic this sets up in that he is taking care of me. I am very giving and caring in relationship and am financially independent, but I love the feeling of being protected and cared for by someone who is generous. I think most men enjoy this role. I like giving them this opportunity. I don’t want to be with someone who doesn’t do this.
I think money should be something that is used to make things work – not as leverage or keeping score.
My conclusion twenty years after I started dating (and despite a lot of feminist theory) is that traditional dating is what makes me feel happiest and I like how it makes the men I date feel too.
November 22nd, 2007 at 5:09 pm
It’s good that you know what makes you happy and that you’re going after it! :-)
October 15th, 2009 at 9:20 am
I’m new at this. A few days ago a asked this man out to have dinner with me on saturday. To be honest i don’t want to pay for dinner, but i’m willing pay for half. Do you think that makes me look like a selfish person?