If you read me over at Nerve magazine, you know that I recently had a date with a high school teacher because I wrote, “I have a date tonight. It’s with a sensitive high school teacher.” The short story? It was a good date, and he’s a very nice kisser. At the end of the date, I was still tingling all over. The long story? I’ll post that up on the blog sometime tonight or tomorrow morning. In the meantime, I wanna bring up one particular thing that happened though … Okay, so, we’re at dinner, right? Yada, yada, yada. It’s the end of the night, and we’re comfortably tucked away at a table in a cozy corner of the quaint little Italian restaurant that he picked out. It’s getting late, so we ask for the check. The waiter arrives tableside and places the black leather cushy booklet thing between us. (Does anyone know if that fucking thing has an actual name?) Anyway, so, the black leather cushy booklet thing is on the table and it has a little white slip of paper called a “bill” neatly placed inside of it. I’m not sure where this kid was raised but, where I come from (… the cornfields of Illinois …), it’s his job to pick that fucking thing up and pay for it. Cash. Check. Or, charge. I don’t care. Just take care of it. All of it. Oh, but no, he doesn’t do that. What does he do? He stands up quickly, screams “see ya, wouldn’t wanna be ya”, bolts for the door, and then darts through the restaurant like a crazed madman until he reaches the front door. Once he’s there, he does a little dance and then runs away only to never be seen again.
Okay, okay, so that’s not what happened. But, it was a good story, no? ;-)
So, what *did* happen after the waiter placed the black leather cushy booklet thing on our table? The sensitive high school teacher guy asked, “Should we ante up?” And, then, we split the bill. Yep. He paid for half and I paid for half. Call me an old fashion country bumpkin from the hills, but I don’t really think that I should pay a fucking dime on the first date. Or, for that matter, the second date either. And, quite frankly, even when I’ve offered to pay half on a first date (which is rare now that I’m in New York), I don’t think anyone has ever actually accepted my money. Am I crazy? In 2007, is it unreasonable for women to still expect men to pay for 100% of the first date? I could have flat out refused to pay, but that would have made me look like a total asshole, right?
When I wrote about this subject in a post titled Should Men Always Pay for the First Date? earlier this month, I never could have imagined that I’d find myself on the receiving end of 50% of a bill just a couple weeks later. So, here’s the question: Am I wrong to take a few points away from the guy because he made me pay? And, is there ANY acceptable way to convey a message that says “this is the first date, I’m not fucking paying” to a guy who offers to split the bill on a first date?
{ 37 comments… read them below or add one }
Oh good Lord…this had me going nuts over here! The only thing I could think was, “Oh NO he di-in’t!!” Because really, what planet is he from? If this is about being a teacher on a meager salary, leave that for the damn second or third date!! My GAH! *sigh*
OK, I’m going to sound like a real bitch, but go ahead and take points off this guy’s roster. Either he’s been in space for the last…um…FOREVER, or he’s really cheap. Or he “wasn’t feeling” the date (so sorry for saying so), because that’s just not normal. “Ante up?!” It’s not fucking POKER!!
Was he at least cute? ;o)
I went for dinner with a guy last week, it wasn’t strictly a date as such but I still paid my half of it.
I just feel less obligated if I pay my half. Of course I won’t get into a fight about it if he insists on paying, I can graciously accept and smile a polite thanks as well as any girl. I just prefer to pay my share until I’m more at ease with the person I went out with.
That said I think whoever did the asking should (at least offer to) pay regardless of gender.
This is where alot of guys trip themselves up. me ,personally, I always pay for the first date. I’ll even give alot of you guys a tip:
As the evening is winding down, excuse yourself for a bathroom run and pay for the check and have a last glass of wine sent to the table. Why does this work?
1. women really want a man to be in control of a situation, yet not a control freak.
2. why even bother with the stress of who’s going to pay? it only decreases your dating experience.
3. The look in her eyes when she asks about the check as you both get up to leave, and you say ” I’ve taken care of it” IS PRICELESS!!! It falls somewhere between the shock and awe of being able to give a fantastic kiss and her finding out you are the high Dalai Lama of oral sex.
As I commented last time, I don’t necessarily think it’s “fair” that a guy should have to pay for the first date, but I agree it’s expected at this point and if he doesn’t, he looks like a tool. If he’s dating a lot, I’m sure it gets expensive, and logically he shouldn’t have to go broke buying dinner for women he may or may not see again. But damn-near every other guy DOES, so he looks like a jerk by comparison. Sorry, guys, but it’s the way the world works.
I have a little, a very little, bit of empathy for men in the dating scene. NYC is a damn expensive city. But personally, I’d rather a guy take me out on affordable date, be it for tapas, drinks, a walk in the park sipping hot chocolate or going ice skating, than somewhere more pricey and ask to split the effin’ bill. I hate that and yes, will forever hold it against him.
I went to lunch once at DB’s with an older guy, late 50′s, who talked about his Gramercy Park apartment and his house on Shelter Island. When the check came, he asked if I was going to be fucking him. I replied in the negative, could be that his talk of coming into a shot glass that I’d than drink from while I was trying to eat my roasted halibut with ratatouille was just a tad unappreciated, and he picked up the bill and said, “how do you want to take care of your half?”
I consider that a $50 lesson in trusting your instincts. I just had the feeling he was going to be a complete ass.
I’m all for putting everything out in the open…some time before the date simply ask.
Another thing…..
If a dude can’t afford to take you out….he shouldn’t ask you out to a place he can’t afford…..
As they say around the way. ” If you can’t run with the big dogs…..Stay on the porch!!”
k-i’m old fashioned. if a guy asks me out, he pays. if i ask him out, he pays. if it’s the second date, and i know we are both in the same economic straits, i offer to pay my share. i was in dc this weekend, and asked one of my favorite long-distance men in my life to meet me. he’s a musician and a scholar and walked up my lawn to attend my first wedding! we both had to take the metro, he more than halfway. he ended up riding his bike. the check came, he opened his wallet, i threw down a 20, he said, oh shall we split? and i said of course. i would have paid all of it to gaze into his blue eyes, and get the music/drum lesson i got at the table, but he’s unemployed, i’m poor, and it was right. i even gave him my unused metro card…
anyway-fbc, first dates should be paid for by the chivalrous gent. guess i need a blog, i have too much to say…
xoxo,
d
I bet he didn’t get a blow job! lol
I always thought that if you wanted to go dutch, you tell the waiter that the checks were separate right from the start. This way there was no confusion and everyone was on the same page. *shrug*
My suggestion is that in the future, when setting up the date, ask something like, “What are we going to do?” and something along the lines of, “Do I have to bring my wallet?” Although it could backfire – he might think you’re offering – a sharp guy should get the hint.
I can’t believe he made you pay! High school teacher or not, a deduction in points is a must. I am old fashioned and a man should be a man.
Top tip for conveying the message you don’t want to pay: Just don’t even look at the bill.
I am definitely not used to paying, but I always come prepared just in case and I’m not offended if I do have to use it for my half of the date. I don’t think that we should expect the man to pay, but normally they do. I wouldn’t take points off at all. Women (including my hypocritical self) always complain that we want to be treated equal. What we mean is, “We want ours and yours too.”
But……………….It also depends on who and how the date came to be. If he said ‘ “I would love to take you out sometime.”, Then I expect him to pay. If he says “We should go out for dinner and drinks sometime.”, then that is pretty general and I think that it could go either way. Also, if the woman comes up with the date I feel that she should at least chip in somewhere.
I have never been asked to pay on a date, but I have paid on several occasions. I do date younger men(I’m a baby cougar yall. I’m 28) and am a little more financially stable so at times I do feel bad so I pay the tip and offer to pay for drinks or any other thing we plan to to that night. Its a little class-less to me to b at the restaurant like, “You got a roll but you got two butters and I had one so you pay $23.79……” So I lighten the load somewhere else. I have even dated millionaires who would get me anything that I want, but that is not the point. I have even paid (or at least I do that half grab for the bill) when I was out with them to show that I value time taken to be with me and I think that they are also worth my hard earned money as I am with theirs.
It’s just the PRINCI-PALITY. LOL
P.S I think that they are called bill sleeves or currency holders.
i agree with tess and dkzone. have paid the bill without making a fuzz about it is the right thing. and better a cheap good date than a split in a fancy one :P
First, lemme just say THANK YOU. I knew I wasn’t crazy. Okay, so, now … comments received thus far …
@ AmyD: Gorgeous he was not, but he was cute was.
@ Darwin: For the record, HE asked for the date.
@ Dkzone: Not feeling the bottle of wine (I’d think the guy was trying to get me drunk), but I gotta admit that I think the “I took care of it” line is hot. Good one. Very nice touch.
@ stefanie: EXACTLY. Even if a guy doesn’t typically do it, MOST guys do … so it makes the ones who don’t look bad.
@ Tess: Late 50′s, huh? Yeah, I hear sugar daddies are typically on the Pay-for-play plan. It seems nothing comes for free.
@ Dkzone: Good point. Not only did he ask me out, he also picked out the place. It was a great restaurant, and I had a good time. The only thing that went weird with the date was the fact that I paid for half of it. Weeelll, that and the fact that he told me my cheeks are fat. (Long story.)
@ denise: Dit-fucking-o!!! I couldn’t agree with you more. He asks = he pays. I ask = I offer but he still pays. And, yes, you should totally blog. Until then, your comments — of any length that you desire — are very warmly welcomed here. You always have great insights and stuff. :)
@ Phoena: OF COURSE I blew him. But, that happened BEFORE the check arrived.
@ Ella: See, that’s where I went wrong. I fucking looked at it. Gotta keep that in mind next time. Don’t. Look. At. It. Well, at least the good news is that I didn’t do “the reach”. I made no gestures at all to indicate that I had any intention of paying for that date.
@ blkfoxxx: Ooooh, thanks for the info. “Bill sleeves”. Has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it?
@ Carolina Pereira: I guess that depends. I mean, you know, how cheap of a cheap date are we talking about? ;)
Tess: Holy crap! What a sleeze.
Funny you should post this, FBC…a couple of weeks ago I met a guy at a club (I know, I know) and we had a great talk and all, and at the end of the night he asked for my number and I gave it to him. He calls, asks if I want to go out sometime. We arrange for lunch the upcoming Saturday. We have a good time (this one is also a good kisser, haha) and he drives me to work an hour after he thought I’d actually have to be there. Good sign, considering I suggested him just taking me home cause he’d made plans with friends, and he said no, he’d rather hang out with and talk to me, and drive me later. We talk about getting together again, and it seems like it was a good date altogether…except for the fact that he didn’t pay my half.
So the bill comes.
M: So I’ve got interac
K:…and I’ve got Visa…(thinking, where is this going?!)
He picks up the bill and walks off. I have no idea what’s going on. He brings back a slip of paper.
M: I had them separate it for us. Sorry I couldn’t pay for the whole thing. I’m kinda broke.
K: (Thinking, hello? It’s a $10 wrap!) …uh, that’s okay.
We leave the restaurant.
M:…you seem kind of upset. Are you okay?
WHAT can I say about that!? …I denied being upset. What do I say? I’m mad that you didn’t pay for me?
I agree with various other posters about this: I don’t think it’s an OBLIGATION that the guy pays, but it IS the first date, and I’m a believer that whoever asks is the one who should plan on paying. If you’re getting together to hang out that’s another story, but a date is different. He gets dinner, I get the show. I’ll get drinks, he pays for bowling. Split it up like that, but going dutch on a (first) date? Kind of tacky, IMO. If you can’t afford it, do something cheap or free. Points for creativity!
…that said, we’ve still been talking and I believe we’re planning on getting together again…
He told you your cheeks are fat? WTF?
What’s with all this “deduct points” thing? The guy lost his chance with you. Period! Game over!
No, we don’t need to go into the economic inequality of America’s workforce by gender hence a man should feel obliged to pay (unless he’s dating an heiress). This is a man who has no interest in even pretending to be charming and generous. And you have your standards (no matter if we agree with you or not). So, why should you pretend to be interested in a cheapskate like that?!
@ KristalL Your dude’s a good kisser, too? Do we know that we’re not talking about the same guy. ;) And, yes, he told me that my cheeks are fat. He was looking at my wrist and he told me that they were really tiny. So, then he goes, “looking at your wrist, I would never guess that they match your cheeks” or something like that. So, of course, I was like, “What?” And, that’s when he told me that my cheeks were “really full”. He said it was “cute”, but I still thought it was kind of an odd thing to say.
@ Peggy b.: It’s odd because, up until the “split the bill” thing, I was actually having a pretty good time on the date. But, after that happened (and the cheeks comment came shortly after that), it really made me reconsider. Pity. Funny how just a thing or two can alter whether or not you decide to go on a second date with a person.
Fat Cheeks?! WTF?
The wine is to be enjoyed, and not necesarily as ‘liquid panty remover’.
The more you talk about homie the more socially inept he sounds.
He said you had fat cheeks? He called you fat? He thinks it’s cute that you’re fat? To use DKZ’s words, WTF??!! I thought every single man knew not to use the ‘f’ word EVER given how easy it is to mess with the word.
“He who asketh, payeth” has a nice ring to it as a dating commandment but I still don’t believe in it.
Okay I guess I am old fashioned also but he should have paid for the date. The only way that I would go half on a date is if we discussed it beforehand. If you ask me out you pay and if I ask you out I pay.
I think man should pay for the first date only if it is a date. When it is your female friend, I don’t think man has any obligation to do that. I had this situation when i paid for this girl through the whole night and when I asked her to buy me a drink that was promised from her, she completely ignored me and when I reminded she accused me of being a “cheap asshole”. Girls should be more respectful and less selfish and at least offer to pay on a first and second date. A real man would not take your money if you worth it.
Fat cheeks? “Cute?!” Dude has clearly been hanging around kids too long. ;o)
Great read.
Any updates on this guy FBC?
My whole philosophy on dating (for men and women) is if you can’t afford to cover the whole check then don’t go on a date at that particular venue. If you’re rolling around with $2 in your pocket then don’t accept a date nor offer a date at “Chatel Booshwa”. A man paying for the first date is just a given, a rule. I’m not saying if you’re hard up on money then don’t date. Poor people need love too. All men can’t afford to go on $100 dinners (I’m one of them), but creativity and a well thought out plan can win you much more points than how much you’re spending on dinner. However, there is a community of females out there that give points based on monetary aspects. They are better known as gold diggers and no man with self respect will let these monsters penetrate their life.
Should you have paid? Nope, nope and nope.
Chivalry ain’t dead, but it damn sure has a couple stab wounds.
Ok, dude doesn’t get placed at the bottom of the list, he gets booted completely OFF the list. I can’t believe he was that incredibly cheap! I agree with DKZONE, if you can’t afford the place, don’t suggest it…if you can’t afford to pick up the check, then how about asking me if I’d like to spend an afternoon in the park or something equally FREE instead of taking me to a nice dinner! What if you hadn’t brought cash or a card with you? Nope, dude is a punk that deserves to be date-less!
@ Dkzone: ‘Liquid panty remover’? Love it.
@ Ella: YES!!! He actually said that I have baby fat cheeks. I was like, “Um, I kind of have weight issues, and that’s not cool to say that.” He was like, “Um, well, it’s cute. It’s just like, you know, you have these tiny little wrists … I wouldn’t expect to look up and see, you know … those cheeks.” It was so goofy / strange that I just kind of laughed a little bit. Who the hell notices anyone’s cheeks?!?! :)
@ KrisTLove: Exactly!
@ Jonathan: Wow. I was honestly really surprised to read your comment. Although I could delete it, I’ll allow it to stand. (Needless to say, if you post in future comments this vein, they will be deleted.) By “I had this situation” you really mean: you and I went to a sex club together and you didn’t feel that you should’ve paid for as much of the night as you did. I, of course, disagree. If you still have issues with that, I’d appreciate it if you’d call me or email me directly instead of using this blog to post an extremely thinly-veiled “I had this situation” bullshit passive-aggressive comment. Check your email. I’ve sent you an email directly as well.
@ AmyD: You could be on to something there. :)
@ K.: Glad you liked the post. No updates. I haven’t called him since the date. You said, “Chivalry ain’t dead, but it damn sure has a couple stab wounds.” I think you’re right.
@ Heaven: Yeah. I think the kicker here isn’t just the fact that we split the bill, it’s that he’s the one who asked me out … and he also picked the place.
OH FBC, I just love you! 1. because you address issues that I can completely relate to and 2. because you just called somebody out in your blog, so ballsy, so awesome. There are more reasons, but those are the ones that hit me at the moment. As a southern girl, I often find it difficult to tactfully take someone to task for being rude/insulting/inappropriate. I’m working on it, but it’s good to have role models. And yes, he should have paid for the date, or planned a lower cost excursion that he could better afford. I feel like, when on those first few dates, a man who pays is a man who’s saying, “you’re worth my time, and I’m interested in making our time together as pleasant as possible”. Nothing is quite so awkward as figuring out a way to divvy up the check, and waiters just loove running two separate credit cards and doing last minute math. And…fat cheeks? Uh, not cool man, not cool. If it were me, this dude would be heading to the probs not pile.
Awww, sweetie, thanks for the kind words! :)
About the date … I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, I feel like, when on those first few dates, a man who pays is a man who’s saying, “you’re worth my time, and I’m interested in making our time together as pleasant as possible”.
So, when a guy doesn’t pay, it communicates just the opposite and that makes me wonder: why the hell should I go out with him again?
@FBC: Give the guy a break. He’s a friggin’ TEACHER! i.e. the man has a heart, patience and little money but he can kiss! Ya don’t want me to start calling you a ‘golddigga’?!?
I’ve commented before on how I always pay for these things, something my momma taught me, but… reading these comments I’d be inclined to ‘pull a Tessy’ just as a test to see what you (GF) are made of…
K got it right… “if you can’t afford to cover the whole check then don’t go on a date at that particular venue”.
In this case ‘teach’ could use some homeschooling.
I soooo couldn’t agree with you more. :)
I think women cannot have it both ways.
At one point in time it was a custom that men pay for women. However, that was because women could not own property, vote, or work.
Women have demanded and obtained the same opportunities and rights as men. Women insist on being treated as equals in the work place. (which they have every right to be) However, they are not willing to act as equals after work. You cannot claim equality when it benefits you but insist against it when it is not in your interests. If you want a man to pay for your dinner, you shouldn’t be offended if he says you should be bare foot and pregnant.
In our time of equal rights, I don’t think I should bare the financial risk of social situations because of my gender. I always insist that intitial dates are Dutch. If that offends a women and she does not want to see me again, I say good riddence. I do not want a relationship with an unreasonable, hypocritical person.
So you meet another girl at work and you and she asks if you want to get lunch. Do you expect her to pay your bill? Oh, but if a guy asks you to lunch, then he should pay OF COURSE. Women today want it both ways: full equality…oh, except when it comes to money.
“I could have flat out refused to pay, but that would have made
me look like a total asshole, right?”
mmmm Sure. Because you would have BEEN a total asshole.
You demand equal pay, equal rights, equal respect. But you seem perfectly happy to take a hand out when it comes to dates. Seems weird to me. Look, I know that all women love a guy who throws his money around. I’m just pointing out that its a gross double standard…like it or not.
If youre worried about your pride and your bank account, then complain that the man isnt taking care of you. If you consider yourself an equal, then pull out your wallet and stop whining.
Kevin: Nope. If a male coworker asked me out to lunch, I expect us to go Dutch. I — as well as some of the women and men who’ve commented here — only expect the guy to pay if it’s a date, especially a first date.
Jeff: You mentioned, “At one point in time it was a custom that men pay for women.” It’s still custom that men pay for the first date.
@twanna: in the south, some men will insist on paying, even if it’s a co-worker. even if it’s lunch. i’m not complaining :-)
i’m still trying to figure out where men get the idea that getting the same pay for the same job equates to not wanting to be wooed. i’m just saying.
that said, the point of paying, is NOT the MONEY. it’s the communication that:
(a) i had a good time with you
(b) if you like me in return, i want you to know that i have a generous spirit.
(c) thank you for spending time with me
not paying (and for the woman, not doing the offer-fake), as twanna said, says the opposite. any man that doesn’t get that is an idiot who should not date.
meet for coffee and a walk in the park if you are so broke that you can’t pick up the tab for BOTH of us at a place YOU picked out. order the cheaper entree.*
*that said, if the woman had more than two or more drinks, she should contribute to the bill.
I belive in old traditions, I always genuinely offer to pay first and further dates. However becoming a new yorker meant to live with the fact that MANY women feel they should pay or at least go “dutch”. That is fine with me as well – I dont’ take insult or threat to a women’s show of independance. There are many valid reason why you should go dutch – for one it makes one or the other feel obilgated one pays the whole bill. First and second dates can be nerve-racking as it.
my 2 cents…
Erick
My personal rule? Whoever asks for the date, should pay for the date. The asker should actually pay for dates 1-3. At that point most people should decide if they actually want to continue and then start to offer to pay half. But I think going dutch is kinda tacky anyway. One person should pay for the entire meal and then the other pays another time. Relationships are all about compromise and this has worked pretty well for me.
Wow…okay, a 40yr old guy invites me to a college football game (he has season tickets). I drive 2hrs to get there and because I didn’t want to carry my purse into the game, I give him my cash to hold on to ($80). We eat lunch after the game and have a few drinks. When it it time for me to leave, he gives me back my money BUT ONLY $50.00!!! I really liked him but I can’t get past this…UGH! Admittedly, he’s having financial issues and I am not…still sucks…he won’t get another date…
Funny how most of the women here would be offended if the guy didn’t at least offer to pay for the entire first date. When it comes to romance, it’s still “customary” for men to pay for the date, hold doors, ie “be in control, but not a control freak”
In business though, it’s sexist for men to be in control, to assume the role of the “stronger sex.”
And I agree that female equality is important. But you can’t expect one part of the male/female relationship to change without the other aspects to be affected as well. Women are expected to be equals in the workplace (in contradiction of our parents customs), and they are expected to have the ability to pay their own way (in contradiction of our parents customs).
Personally I always offer to pay no matter what the date, because I’m old fashioned. I also have old fashioned ideas about family as well. So sue me.
Just my 2 cents