They were fighting. Last night, on my way home, I passed an Upper East Side couple heading south on Lexington. He was wearing a navy sports coat, nice slacks, and his left wrist sported an understated but attractive TAG Heuer wristwatch. She was thin with silver hair perfectly coiffed into a neat up-do. She draped body in a classic A-cut burgundy dress. A pretty shawl loosely caressed the folds of her arms which she moved sharply while explaining to the guy, “You can’t have freedom in a marriage!” I thought, Ewww! She makes being married to her sound like prison!! :( She needs to give her husband his free!! Give him his free!!! After I got home, I kept turning that woman’s words around in my head. You can’t have freedom in a marriage. You can’t have freedom in a marriage. Getting dressed this morning, I thought about her again when I read about China blocking access to Twitter on the eve of the 20th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre.
While that woman on Lexington was yelling at her husband about his refusal to be on lockdown, I checked his face for reaction. His facial features crumbled, shoulders slouched and he looked like an animal caged against his will. He looked completely and utterly miserable. I kind of felt bad for him. Whether dating, married or single — who the hell wants to feel like their freedoms have been taken away?
Although I haven’t ever cheated on anyone, each of my exes could tell you several ways in which I’ve been an imperfect girlfriend, an imperfect human being. That said, I’ve grown up a lot and I’ve learned a thing or two about how to treat men. One of the JDate profile questions asks about my past relationships. I wrote: “I’ve learned to be a more patient, less judgmental and more forgiving person. In my past, I’ve placed unreasonable expectations on my boyfriends (i.e. one dude wanted to get waaaaay too close to me waaaay too soon and I pushed him away). I now know it’s unreasonable to expect 100% freedom when someone else wants to share their time or their heart with you.” So, now, if a guy is doing or saying something to me that I don’t like, I focus on my reaction instead of his actions — i.e. it’s about how he makes me feel, not about taking away his freedom away while expecting to keep mine 100%.
Who the hell knows why the couple I passed on the street was fighting. Perhaps, he was cheating? If that’s the case, I imagine his response to his wife would’ve been quite different if she’d started with: “When you cheated on me, it made me feel like I’m not good enough for you and you needed to go outside of our marriage to get turned on or and have an orgasm. That makes me feel like I’m not sexy, attractive or desireable enough and you’d rather be with another woman instead of me. So, that makes me wonder if you want out of this relationship and/or if I should get out. But, I’m afraid to go because we’ve got children, history and a life together. And, I’m afraid to stay because I’d feel ashamed, like I don’t value my own self worth.” THAT conversation might’ve ignited a dialogue about the possibility of an open relationship, divorce, working on relationship problems, better sex, a separation or other possible routes. Instead, the pair walked down the street while she forcefully explained that he couldn’t be a free man and he looked pained as he listened in silence. Besides, I didn’t really get the impression they resolved anything with the fight. Hmmm …. I still can’t get that woman’s words out of my head or that guy’s face out of my sight. Is It Possible to Keep Your Freedom in a Relationship? Go ahead; leave your ideas in the comments section below.
When you have a relationship with someone, you have to accept that you are going to have to give up some freedoms. Of course it should not be a prison–for example, you can still go out with your friends, but you might recognize that if you live with someone that person will want to know if you won’t be home. However, from the way you described the argument, I assume he had been cheating…and who is going to be rational like you describe after finding that out?
Yes, you can have your freedom in a relationship. You first have to be a whole person before partnering up. That requires one to be emotionally healthy. You should also have your own interests, friends, hobbies, etc. (Some of the happiest and longest relationships advocate for this.) Be you, not the person someone else expects you to be.
I also love bell hooks’s ingredients for love as a combination of six ingredients: care, commitment, knowledge, responsibility, respect and trust. One must have it for yourself first. If it’s in you, you will attract it.
My naivete and past ish resulted in my own toxic relationships. Learning from those experiences has resulted in better relationship choices. I’m a lot freer now.
The attitude that you can’t have freedom in a marriage (or committed relationship) is, in my opinion, one of the biggest reasons so many people don’t view them favorably. You have to have some freedom in it, or it dies, and everyone ends up feeling miserable and trapped.
I think every person has different requirements for their freedom in a relationship and it’s up to each person to have open discussions about what does or doesn’t work, and to adapt accordingly and as possible.
K…. when a relationship,there are many levels to it…… and you decide the levels…. now IÂ
feel that in a marriage, there is a union of two against the world…. but you dont ever giving
up your freedom to do as you see fit ….. that is what makes you,you….. maybe the words
that are said when one gets married should be changed to fit today’s mores … for as myÂ
Grandpa used to say…. ” Son, when you say ” I do ” , you’re done…” the gentleman in
question must have found someone who really sees him in a light that the Lady in question
just fails to see after all the years that have passed them by….. Life has a way to bring
one’s checks and balances to view at a possible not good time….. now it also depends on
what you wish in a relationship….. a dark 30 booty call…. a hang out bud…. a lover… a person to go to holiday family events…. a partner to walk down Life’s path with…. or justÂ
to be with someone so you wont be lonely….. this is what you bring to the table…. and whenÂ
you say ..” I do… ” Â why then you add another wrinkle to the blanket…. when you say I doÂ
you just cancelled a major part of your freedom…. something that has been with you since
birth…. do you wish to do so …. or do you wish to have an open relationship in which
one does as one wishes and the devil take the hindmost… to thy own self be true is what
I live by….. if we are one and we are happy with that …. then so be it…. if more isÂ
needed to be complete…. then do it….. for two people to vent their feelings for you to
witness means one of them is so very tired of the way their contract was written and wish
for it to end…. for men as well for women… that can be a choice one wishes not to make.
but, there are many avenues to explore and age is no longer a speedbump to avoid…
its just the trading up … or the let down of Paradise Lost that one must contend with…
lamesabassman…. one must keep one’s freedom in check at all times… no matter what
the vows ordained…..
“When you cheated on me, it made me feel like I’m not good enough for you and you needed to go outside of our marriage to get turned or and have an orgasm. It makes me feel like I’m not sexy, attractive or desireable enough and you’d rather be with another woman instead of me. So, that makes me wonder if you want out of this relationship and/or if I should get out. But, I’m afraid to go because we’ve got children, history and a life together. And, I’m afraid to stay because I’d feel ashamed, like I don’t value my own self worth.â€
That’s perfect, but when you are emotional, chances are ,you can’t articulate as you did above. Freedom is relative. It means different things to different people and it changes as the relationship evolves. Freedom could mean taking a mini vacation with some friends not necessarily screwing around or freedom could means buying something without asking permission. But these are things that need to be discussed and negotiated by each couple.
However your paragraph above was fabulous!
You can have freedom in a marriage, but just not exactly the same freedom as when you are single. Getting married generally means that your freedom to have sex with anyone who will have you goes bye-bye, but outside of that the limitations are open for discussion. Every life, married or single, has boundaries – getting married may mean moving the boundaries a bit, but exchanging one set of boundaries for another really isn’t a big deal, especially if your new boundaries are attached to somebody seriously cool to spend your life with.
Being in a relationship with someone you don’t love…..”Now THAT’s prison”
I’m in a relationship with someone i love and feel complete freedom. Not because my wife’s a pushover, but because the things I want to do, include her. And the things that i want to do alone….she understands. We both have freedom to be who we are.
That guy sounds like somebody who is trapped in a relationship, because he’s afraid of losing something…my guess is his money or access to her money, if they split. Otherwise why would he sit there being visably miserable…..
I’ve actually crossed that bridge in my life, where i was in a relationship and overtime, became unhappy. The leaving part is far more difficult for some people. I kept up with it hoping things would get better, but after a while it was just too much of arguing over the same things…..I had to make my break. She tried to keep me from leaving by dragging out the divorce, but i wouldn’t let her. I basically gave her everything; the house, the car, the furniture……but i kept my sanity
That guy has to make a choice…..
we choose our freedoms and what makes us happyÂ
Oh…out of context this is so dodgy. If his idea of freedom means, for example, abdicating responsibility, not having to be emotionally available, and putting his wants, needs and desires paramount without consideration of anyone else in the mix, then I agree with what she is saying.
Part of the benefit of being partnered is that the partnership involves consideration that the needs of the Significant Other(s) as, sometimes, more important than yours. Or at least as important.
We have no way to know what preceded this statement. Obviously it was impassioned, and as you mention, it could have been the culmination of a lifetime of frustration.
I do believe that freedom to be who you are is important, but would put unlimited personal freedom as something that is an exchange for the love, companionship and company of another human being one receives in a healthy relationship.
If this compromise is too deep for you, to thorny, too complex, perhaps flying solo would be better.
Peace
~Mollena
I believe both parties should have freedom in a relationship. You should be free to be who you are- a complex human being. Yes, women and men are BOTH that. I think that people should really work on communicating what they want and not just assume things. That man wasn’t really hearing what that woman was saying and she knows that. It’d just keep going round and round and who wants that unless both parties recognize that and make the changes needed.Â
I believe that there can be freedom in a relationship, howver, as most have been saying here, its limited but its also a compromise. Again its also relative. Everyone has different ideas of what freedom means in a relationship. I’ve experienced losing myself in a relationship because I was spending too much time being at that persons beck and call. Now that I’m much older, I realize the importance of maintaining your freedom and individuality to a certain extent. There just has to be mutual understanding and open communication between couples on this topic. But problems will always arise when people aren’t honest about their expectations of the other person in the beginning of the relationship.
My wife and I have been together for 16 years, 9 of that parents to our daughter and we have one on the way. Throughout our relationship, one of our guiding principals has been that we are two individuals united by love and common interest. We are not interested in becoming the whole of each other’s lives. On the contrary, we’ve worked hard at every step of the way to maintain our independence and promote that in our partner. We see each other as partners, equally responsible for the success of our shared endeavor.Â
We have a lot of friends, some shared, some not. We have lovers outside our relationship. We have hobbies and interests, some that overlap, others that don’t. We’ve always worked toward being interdependent but not co-dependent. We believe that our independent ventures strengthen our relationship. We bring interesting things back, new information to discuss and learn from, new experiences to share and revel in.Â
I love my relationship with my wife because it’s something we both choose to work on, neither feels trapped or controlled. We’re two independent, intelligent adults who choose on a daily basis to combine our strengths and make a life together. In my relationships outside this primary one, I want the same kind of independent, thoughtful union. I don’t want to feel controlled or be in control of my partners. For me, this model for relationships is the highest goal and I’m continually working toward that. I’m not saying I don’t experience jealousy or insecurity, but as time goes on, those phases lessen in strength and duration.Â
So yes, I believe it is possible to keep a degree of freedom in a relationship, but it isn’t something that just happens, it’s something that happens because of intention and continual communication and work.
And, ya know, that gentleman may have just been asking for some time out with the guys..
I do think its possible and I don’t think it is possible! I mean you talk about still maintaining who you are but your friends become each others friends! Also activities or habits that were fine before elicits questions or judgement.Even with trust the judgement of that person weighs heavy and you can began to resent that person amy winehouse said it best, he can try to pacify her but what’s inside her will never die.(He can only hold her) its the same partners want changes to happen even the ones that helped them to love in the first place. Trying to change a person who does not see a problem or disagrees with the opinion will cause resentment and make that person sneak or let loose only without the partner. On the other hand you cna have your girls night or boys weekend but it comes with a chance that the partner feels left out
See, the problem with picking up on a couple’s argument in the street is that the comments live in a vacuum without the history and context they deserve to be more fully understood. I mean, maybe she caught him cheating and said all those wonderful, self-directed things you indicated she could have said. And maybe when she got to the end of that beautiful, “let me state what I need, not what you did wrong,” paragraph, maybe he said, “Yeah, that’s nice, but I need the freedom to fuck whoever I want.”
Or maybe it wasn’t even that deep. Maybe she had bought a pint of her favorite ice cream and when she went to eat it, discovered that he had eaten the whole thing. Maybe when she expressed that she’d really been looking forward to eating that ice cream he had said, “Hey, aren’t we each free to eat whatever food is in the house?”
Or, to flip it completely around maybe he was asking her to marry him. Maybe her statement, “there’s no freedom in marriage,” wasn’t a reprimand because of something he’d done. Maybe it was her statement against getting married. Maybe SHE was the one who didn’t want to give up her freedom. And maybe he looked so down and out because his marriage proposal was being turned down.
Or maybe not. Maybe it was just what you thought. But the thing is, that still, we don’t know the history behind the statement. And there’s so many potential histories, all of which could impact the validity of her statement.
Then there is the statement. Can there be freedom in marriage? In any relationship? Well, of course, that depends on how you define freedom. I mean, the reality is that on some level there is no such thing as absolute freedom, period.Â
All of us are constricted by a thousand different things. No one can do exactly what they want all the time. Well, maybe psychopaths who aren’t caught do…but even they have to live within certain restrictions. We all live in relation to others, and that puts restrictions on our behavior. We respect and consider and live by our committments to all kinds of people. We keep our appointments with our doctors, do what our bosses expect of us, even try hard to be there for our friends and family. Why should romantic relationships be any different?
How come when someone is expected to live according to certain expectations or obligations in a romantic relationship, it is suddenly deemed a loss of freedom, when it’s not perceived that way in other relationships?Â
If someone didn’t show up to work for a day or two and their office called to see where they were, would it be acceptable to say, “Hey, back off! I need my freedom”? So why, is it a problem if a spouse expects the same accountability?
I think the reality is that if someone is in a relationship and feels like they’ve lost their freedom – then they don’t belong in that relationship.
In a good relationship there is a sense of balance. The caring, love, partnership, etc., balance out the loss of the ability to do what you want, when you want without having to answer to anyone. If fact, if the relationship, is good, it doesn’t feel like being accountable to another – it feels like sharing your experiences.
If freedom is defined as complete and utter lack of accountability to another person – then, yeah, that woman is right – there is no freedom in marriage. But for people who make marriage work, the have a whole lot more than freedom.
A: Yeah, I kind of got the impression he was cheating, too. Granted, I have NO clue what they were talking about or anything, but that was my hunch.
Pamela: You said, “Be you, not the person someone else expects you to be.” I’ve totally almost fallen into that pattern before. It’s like that Julia Roberts movie Runaway Bride. Richard Gere asks all of her exes how she likes her eggs, and all say “___. Just like me.” (It changed based on who she was dating.) And, yes, where would we be without mistakes. I’m a much healthier and happier person to date because of mistakes I’ve made and learned from in my past.
RCA: You said, “You have to have some freedom in it, or it dies, and everyone ends up feeling miserable and trapped.” I totally agree.
lamesabassman: Relationships are definitely complex.
No Nonsense: You guys all left really good comments on this one. I disagree with some stuff everyone said, and I agree with a lot of it. You said: “Freedom is relative. It means different things to different people and it changes as the relationship evolves.” Love it. So true — in all aspects of life, no?
Baba Doodlius: Mrs. Doodlius is a lucky woman. Everytime you write about her, it sound like the two of you have found something really special. I’m happy for you.
dkzone: Congrats for getting out of it!! :) I like how you put it: “I basically gave her everything; the house, the car, the furniture……but i kept my sanity.” In the end, sounds like you got to keep what matters most!
Mollena: I know, right? I kind of wanted to follow them around to get more context and hear more of the argument, but that would’ve been weird :) [People, read this woman's blog! http://www.mollena.com.] By the way, you are soooooo on the money with “If his idea of freedom means [...]” because I know SEVERAL people who mean exactly that when they talk about “freedom.” Freedom does not necessarily mean “the right to be selfish.”
Cynthia: Yes, I soooo didn’t get the impression that their fight helped their relationship.
brainsnbeauty2: Ooooh, good comment: “problems will always arise when people aren’t honest about their expectations of the other person in the beginning of the relationship.”
Kyle: First, congrats on building a life together for 16 years and congrats on the (upcoming) newest member of your family. :) I really love it when men talk about how much they love their relationships. You and Baba Doodlius make me smile. You said: “I believe it is possible to keep a degree of freedom in a relationship, but it isn’t something that just happens, it’s something that happens because of intention and continual communication and work.” I think the best men on the internet read Funky Brown Chick. And, yeah, I know I could be totally off about the topic of their argument, but I’m soo putting my money on cheating. Don’t put my finger on exactly what it was. Actually, you know what? I can. It was his face. His reaction (more than her words) make me think he was cheating.
davinna: I don’t think it’s possible to change anyone. So, yeah, “what’s inside is inside.” But, I kind of think being in some relationships can motivate someone to change themselves. Like, if you’re dating someone who eats really bad food, you might start doing that, too. Or, if you’re dating someone who works out all the time, you might get motivated to get in shape.
fatlady: Are you singing? ;) By the way, AWESOME questions: “How come when someone is expected to live according to certain expectations or obligations in a romantic relationship, it is suddenly deemed a loss of freedom, when it’s not perceived that way in other relationships? If someone didn’t show up to work for a day or two and their office called to see where they were, would it be acceptable to say, ‘Hey, back off! I need my freedom?’ So why, is it a problem if a spouse expects the same accountability?“
Excellent column. I feel so bad for that poor man. Trapped in prison aka marriage with a naggy, bitchy, whiney woman and she wonders why he would stray for some love and affection with another. Don’t get me wrong I think it is wrong to cheat, but really who could blame him?
Also, does anyone know what happened to that brave man in front of the tank during the Tianamen Square massacre? I take it his where abouts are still “unknown.”
Message to the Chinese government : Shame Shame I know your name.
i like my freedom…and that’s all i have to say…
I’ve been pondering this very topic for about the past hour after receiving news about a couple possibly splitting soon.
Freedom can most certainly be had in a relationship. Think about it, when you’re first dating someone you hid all of your bizarre quirks in hopes of not scaring off a potential. But when you find that right person, the farts, bad jokes, bad music, all get revealed.
fatlady wrote: “How come when someone is expected to live according to certain expectations or obligations in a romantic relationship, it is suddenly deemed a loss of freedom, when it’s not perceived that way in other relationships? If someone didn’t show up to work for a day or two and their office called to see where they were, would it be acceptable to say, ‘Hey, back off! I need my freedom?’ So why, is it a problem if a spouse expects the same accountability?“
I say: Telling someone to back off may not potential wreck your immediate life. If you tell your boss to back off, you just may very well end up homeless. A committed relationship is optional, really; a job of any sort is not, unless one is fine being a bum.
I find it curiously funny that the one freedom that you’re not allowed to have (sexin’ other people) can over ride everything else and tank the relationship. I’m not just talking about cheating, but even the mention of wanting to do something.
Makes you wonder if the swingers/open-relationshipers have the most
Oops, hit reply by accident.
Meant to say “Makes you wonder if the swingers/open-relationshipers have the most potentially the most freedom, or the greatest chance of disaster?”
when you stand at the crossroads of Life…….
lamesabassman…… the view can be limited to the eye of the beholder….
Blonde Man: Yeah, I take it it’s still “unknown.” The napalm girl from Vietnam and a bunch of other people made famous by appearing in the photos have been named. But, I don’t think this guy ever was.
Letinstar: :)
Jeffrey L. Wilson: Thought you’d like this quote: http://www.twannahines.com/items/view/6156/beautiful-quote-about-freedom
Lamesabassman: Everything is in the eye of the beholder, no?
Si … che bella… but when one wishes to view…. what does one wish to see…. Â as manyÂ
levels as one can stand…. or, to cut thru the ice and see… what’s for thee….
when one sees thru the Looking Glass of what Life’s has in store for you… do you dare…..
lamesabassman….. or dive….
but you are the rare one who has stepped upon the crossroads…. faded the fades and rolled your
point….. many are called … but few are chosen….. and there are many … who can help and
find relief in deep corners.. you are the light at the edge of Darkness ,a state of mind county in the Country of Connecting the Dots, USA. Â and just how deep depends on what’s going
thru your funk at the moment…. but, you still hang tough…..
lamesabassman…… and we hang with you…. bella.
Thank you for posting this. It definitely brings up a lot of questions, and must have been intriguing yet sad to see it.
It seems to me if people in a relationship talk about what is freedom in a relationship, what it feels like or looks like to them, and how can they feel what they need, already you would have a feeling of freedom for saying how you feel…then it is trying to see how that can work.
Personally, I am polyamorous, so there is sexual and emotional freedom in my relationships, although even polyamorous people discuss and make guidelines around the level of freedom. So yes, in any relationship, there is negotiating…and sometimes everyone feels the same way, and makes life easy for everyone (what I prefer with a top value of freedom), and sometime you don’t and can make guidelines that may involve more compromise. xo
Thus (as a Man) I shall remain single forever; fuck you, women; what the fuck do you offer nothing that I can’t replicate myself? Except that I do it better because I can read a fucking clock!