[phone conversation. 8:58pm, Monday, August 24, 2009]
BRO: I have three points to make about your last post.
ME: Uh-oh.
BRO: I’m very disturbed. Do you REALLY think white European dudes aren’t WHITE?!
ME: They’re different. Seriously, ask an Irish person: ‘Are you WHITE?’ And they’ll think you’re kind of racist or whatever. Seriously, in Europe, the idea of “race” smacks of 1930s and 1940s eugenics / Hitler shit. Ethnic groups? Yes. Cultures? Yes. But, they wouldn’t understand and believe in the social construct of “race” in the same way Americans do.
BRO: That’s some mumble-jumbo bullshit. They’re white. Your exes were white.
ME: Whatever. I’ve dated white American guys. It’s not the same.
BRO: Ok. Fine. Whatever. Second point. Did you REALLY expect to see brown people on deviantART?
ME: Yes. I think black people should do whatever kind of art we want too.
BRO: That’s not the point. It’s just not what we do. It’s not that we shouldn’t or we can’t. It’s just, you know, most of us just don’t.
ME: Whatever. I’m on deviantART.
BRO: I’m just saying … MOST black people aren’t. Look at their site. They don’t have pictures of black people.
ME: That’s because there’s a bunch of stupid shit people believe about what’s “appropriate” for different people. It’s clannish and everybody deals with that in some way or other. People say “Asians don’t do blah blah blah” or “South Side Irish in Chicago shouldn’t do blah blah blah.”
BRO: Whatever. I’m just saying.
ME: Anyway. Whatever. You said you had a third point?
BRO: Okay, so, I read your post. So, do you mean to tell me — the next time I come to your house — there’s gonna be “The Peen” looking at me while I’m peeing? That’s gross. I mean, imagine: You’re in the bathroom and there are penises everywhere just looking at you!?!? There’s like a third eye thing just staring at you?!?! That’s weird!!! My pee might get scared of that and go back in my body.
ME: Whatever.
{ 21 comments… read them below or add one }
Dang….. you have the makings of a hellacool script for a play.. or a film.. the interplay of words giving a sweet insight to your bantering verbal swordplay…. kind like an Errol Flynn
film with Basil Rathbone as his “foil “…….
that’s some of the most cleanest and def moves that I ever seen …. and I write…..
lamesabassman…… please, continue… ma petit….. tres’ fabu….
you should ask your BRO if he thinks Africans are black…
i typically use the word black to describe african americans…people from Africa and the West Indies don’t fall under the “black” category for me. the only grey area is what to call “black europeans”…
I’ve lived in the US, and now live in Europe. I’m not sure I could draw any conclusions on how people think about race. All the men I’ve been involved with in Europe were white, whereas about a quarter of the men from the US were white. I suspect you spend a lot less time in general thinking about it if you’re not personally affected.
The debate here does seem to be more about integration, religion and culture than ‘race’, but as most of these things can’t be identified by appearance, it always comes back to race. Just because people aren’t mentioning skin colour doesn’t mean they’re not thinking of it.
I’m reminded of an essay by Gary Younge (I couldn’t say which essay, as all my books are packed in preparation of moving) where he talks about how in the US, it’s always about your race, whereas in Britian people are phobic of mentioning it, even when it makes sense to mention it.
He describes a situation where someone has come to the office looking for him. People describe him as short and stout, with short hair. Certainly these things are true, but nobody mentions his colour, although he’s the only black person in the entire office, and could certainly be more easily identified through this piece of information.
lamesabassman: I used to have a blog called “Conversations with Mags & Bro.” It documented all the goofy, silly, serious and crazy conversations I had with two friends. Stopped doing it because it was a pain in the ass to manage multiple blogs and write print articles and do everything else. But, I liked that blog while it was around.
mydria: VERY good point about “black” and “African.” I (and many black Americans) do the same. Black Europeans are called by their nationality (i.e. “He’s French” or “She’s German” or whatever).
A: I agree and disagree. Yes, the debates in the UK and Europe are more about integration, religion and culture than “race.” I also agree that, “Just because people aren’t mentioning skin colour doesn’t mean they’re not thinking of it.” I disagree that “it always comes back to race.” The US is extremely racialized. (We don’t think of our past in the same context of South Africa but, what was Jim Crow / segregation if not a form of apartheid?) So, when we as Americans go elsewhere, we see their countries and their ethnic groups and everything else in terms of race, race, race. But, it’s not always that easy. Americans would simply consider “white” the people the Germans call Turks and the Dutch call Poles and so on. Britian and the rest of the UK is a bit different than continental Europe because, in many respect, they see the world like Americans do (or, technically, vice versa — we see it like they do since we’re the former colony). But, even there, Pakistanis are an ethnic minority while they’re considered “white” in the US. “Asian” means something completely different in London than New York. And, being “Catholic” or “Protestant” has a different “ethnic” significance in Belfast than it does anywhere on US soil. Having lived as a black American in the UK and the Netherlands over a period of 4 years during my adult life (and the US the rest of it), I’m fascinated with this stuff. I did my degrees in Sociology and, before I started writing about sex & dating, I worked in international affairs abroad and also researched and published academic work on the socioeconomic politics of immigration in Europe.
Twanna, I’ve wanted to go back to school and get my PhD in Sociology. I’m very interested in race and ethnicity, particularly how “black” is defined, and the similarities and differences between black Americans and black Europeans. (By black Europeans, I mean black people in Europe people who are not immigrants and who are 5th+ generation without strong ties to their African family, like Americans sorta). I am looking for a word that defines us collectively, if it exists.
I’d love to read some of published your academic work. Where can I find it?
I think my statement about it always being about race was not clear: I was talking about people like Wilders and Griffin. What I meant is that there are still racist people here, it’s just that they don’t talk about it in the same way they do in the US. They talk about other things–religion, or integration–but it still feels like they’re really talking about race, underneath the gloss.
Naturally not everyone is using integration as a code for race. As an immigrant myself, I feel that all immigrants ought to make an effort to integrate into society rather than form closed groups, and that applies just as much to the Americans, Brazilians and Poles as it does to the Turks and Moroccans.
That was hysterical. We Americans can be very egocentric. As in, what we think aplies universally to everyone everywhere.
here’s what you do to your brother.
show pics of breasts and then pics of penises, and then pics of the tranny they came from…..
That type of prank always cracks me up…..but also disturbs me too. LOL
Bless you heart to have engaged in a myopic conversation like that. I couldn’t, I simple don’t have the patience for it. For the first 18 years of my life I’ve lived all over the world and was quite surprised when I migrated here (USA) that there was such a definitive line in defining who was white and black, meaning having melanin of any amounts meant you were under the black category and lack thereof you were white. Whereas in other parts of the world mainly Europe and Asia you were defined by ethnicity. Another thing that gets me, its when some one refers to whites as Caucasian. My first thought is that they are from or descendants of people from the Caucasus’s, who are genetically closer to Asians. I am sure if more “American whites” were aware of that they would quickly redefine themselves.
BTW hang whatever dang pictures you want on your wall, and if someone penis recoils in horror, so be it! (I have a few nudes myself and snickers at the visitors who blush hee hee)
There are a lot of black people on deviantART, I’m one of them!
#1. I hope you got the permission of your BRO before you placed him on Blast like this. I’m sure what people say in private to one another is completely different than what a person would say in public. (See Dog Bounty Hunter)
#2. I love how people use the kumbaya there is no color or race mumbo jumbo. But place a person in Prison they will choose sides really quick or let a group of people who may have darker skin stand in a corner. Then people for whatever reason start to get nervous.
Usually the people who make comments such as that say it for self-serving reasons.
Hi, all, “Bro” here! Just wanted to stop by and say that I’m glad our (admittedly silly and very tongue-in-cheek!) conversation brought up some really good and thought-provoking comments! Also, I just wanted to point out that, despite my moniker, “Bro” is a she. :) “Bro” is a nickname coined by the FBC long ago that I just haven’t been able to shake. :) Carry on, all!
Black, white, whatever. Kermit the Frog and I will tell you that it isn’t easy being green.
K …. ” Bro “…… that explains a lot……
lamesabassman….. are you an ex-nun….. you gots the traits ….. smile…. rock on…
mydria: My writing portfolio is over on http://www.twannahines.com. I’ve mostly posted my sex & dating stuff, but I wrote a chapter for the book “Migration and Immigration: A Global View” and that’s available there. I was in a sociology PhD program, but I left it for many reasons. Can email you about it if you’re interested. And, I’m including those years of my life in my book. Long story short, I didn’t feel like I’d be as affective as a sociologist if I stayed in academia past my MA. More people read Glamour, Huffington Post and New York Times than they do American Journal of Sociology. That’s not a slam against AJS. I’m just saying, for me, I’d rather write newspaper and magazine articles & blog posts about stuff that interests me (and stuff that people actually read) than go the academic journal route. You have my email address, right? Feel free to shoot me a message offline if you want to talk about that stuff more.
A: I agree with you. I learned Dutch while I was in the Netherlands even though I soooo didn’t need to because everyone there speaks English. But, I got tired of “noise” on the train being “noise” instead of conversations. I wanted to understand what people around me were saying. I had a bunch of other reasons for learning the language, too, but that’s neighter here not there. I don’t think integration is about letting go of your culture or whatever, I think it’s about learning how to survive and THRIVE in a place that’s not originally your own. I fared much better in Amsterdam and The Hague because I spoke Dutch. And, not to mention, even after I came back to the US, I scored a bunch of hot Dutch ass from male expats because they were impressed I speak that a little brown American woman spoke their language :)
dkzone: You’re too much!
No Nonsense: Yay for penises in my bathroom!! :)
Aitch: I love it that you’re on there, too!!
JoeBmore: Bro’s a woman. We were on the phone and I read the post aloud before I posted it. I actually said, “I’m going to write about this!” :) And, by the way, what are you smoking? ;) I wrote a post about hanging penises in my bathroom and you started talking about prison???? :)
The Original Bro: What???? BRO reads my blog, now!??!!?! :)
Baba Doodlius: I ask myself this all the time, “Do I want to live in a world where I pig and a frog can’t love each other without people talking shit about them? No. I don’t want to live in that world.” KERMIT + PIGGY = FOREVER!!!
lamesabassman: Yep. Bro is wise. Goofy but wise :)
Since we’re on the subject of the Netherlands, I’m curious about your views on Zwarte Piet. I once asked a Dutch friend of mine who is black (S.), and she said it was just a fun tradition. An American friend of South Asian descent (N.) came to visit me around that time once, and he found it horrible. I know there is a group of people in the Netherlands who don’t like it, but from my observations they’re a very small minority.
Since I’m originally American, my view more closely mirrors N.’s than S.’s and I still can’t say I’ve integrated in this respect (although I don’t make a fuss about it; a white person complaining about it to people who don’t find it offensive seems so patronizing). Anyhow, this is one of the times when I’ve been most aware of my American views of race, thus I’m curious about how you viewed it when you lived here.
Race is funny thing outside of America. I ‘m a brown skin women and was told by a Brazilian friend that i was not black. They have like 60 word for skin color in Brazil! My friend who is also African American of Caribbean descent would be considered white in my country, because he is light skin . He hates it ,but everywhere is different.
As for Black people on Deviant art I say cool. When I use to live in the State the most maddening thing for me was having blackness so narrowly define, by black and white Americans. questions about my name being white, about being multilingual. In the last few years of staying in the States i gravitated toward people from all the world over whose conception of blackness were not so narrow. Usually in America they want black women to act a certain way love certain music , art and etc . I usually found myself being the only black person in my circle of friends. I remember being taken aback out when a black teacher told me that I was never going to find a black American guy to date me, because of my tastes I was 18 and lo and behold he was right. I never set out never to date a black man i just never happened.
As for penis in your bathroom I say awesome. The peens are so fascinating and fun to look at lol.
In term of living in Europe Twanna what are the stereotype attributed to black women? Are there any?
A: I think Zwarte Piet is TOTAL bullshit, and it’s ridiculous the Dutch still celebrate it. Sure, they can say “it’s just a tradition” but that’s an excuse. Oh now the Dutch (and Europe in general) love their traditions! BUT … The French used to guillotine people, but that “tradition” fell by the wayside. The Dutch used to throw all their shit in the canals until they figured out that whole “organized garbage collection” stuff. Culture — like people, like life — changes everyday. We hold on to what helps and works for us. We let go or adapt what doesn’t. I fail to see how Zwarte Piet “works for” or “helps” the Dutch as a nation — besides, of course, furthering their legacy as colonizers who enslaved people. If THAT’S what they want to hold on to, that’s pretty fucked up.
zindzhi: You mentioned, when you lived in The States, you “gravitated toward people from all the world over whose conceptions of blackness were not so narrow.” Though I hang out with (and date and fuck) people of many different ethnicities & nationalities, I notice a lot of my close friends who understand me best are black women and other women of color. (That’s not to say I don’t have really good friends who aren’t people of color and/or aren’t female.) By the way, yep stereotypes about black women abound in Europe. However, that wasn’t always a bad thing :) Will write about that soon in long form, need more space than this comment.
I agree there are issues that mostly other women of color will get. my core friends group are people of color. My closest partner in crime though is a European from the Mediterranean. I can’t wait to read the post on being a black woman in Europe.
That went completely over my head.
‘Tis a shame
that to exist on this planet
that one is poured
into a mold
and … there you be…..
for all to see
the person
that all say is you
‘n’ that you know it’s who
you ain’t….
ain’t that a blip…
whatever happened to
drop dead gorgeous …. ’nuff said…
who cares about the flavor
when we all know …
it’s the essence….
the core…. that every lasting center
better than a ” Clark bar…. ”
it made Miles smile
a with learned wiles
one will tend to bypass
the Drama and enter the Trauma …
that only experimenting
will bring forth the light
to guide you to your senses
we all taste good
and we all are cool
so… how much longer
ya’ gonna play the fool……
Life’s too Lovely
to rain on…..
lamesabassman…… let no one stand in your shadow…. rock on….